How did the universe begin?

**ILoveInquiry** Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:25 am

What is the big bang? Was it God? Did it just start out of nowhere? Could everything in the cosmos really have fit into something the size of a grapefruit? And, does it just go on forever?

Sadii Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:38 pm

hmmm...thinking about it now and realizing to myself, did the universe even have a beginning ? will it even have an end? it's weird, apparently we were all taught in many different ways that the universe has been here for the longest tiem that even man does not know, but have we ever thought about looking upon it and acutally finding out when it ever started? i beielve there must have been a start a long time ago, that a man can not himself find the answer to this, and it will have an end jsut like how it had started...God has created everythign he had created the Universe, so of course i believe there will be an end, but when? no one knows? some say 2012, but then again one can believe it as a myth. everythign was created by God, if he wants the universe to end it can end anytime but no one knows for sure when.

Eclipse Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:43 am

Sadii wrote:hmmm...thinking about it now and realizing to myself, did the universe even have a beginning ? will it even have an end? it's weird, apparently we were all taught in many different ways that the universe has been here for the longest tiem that even man does not know, but have we ever thought about looking upon it and acutally finding out when it ever started? i beielve there must have been a start a long time ago, that a man can not himself find the answer to this, and it will have an end jsut like how it had started...God has created everythign he had created the Universe, so of course i believe there will be an end, but when? no one knows? some say 2012, but then again one can believe it as a myth. everythign was created by God, if he wants the universe to end it can end anytime but no one knows for sure when.

If you're saying a "god" created the universe, then what created that "god?"

Boricua Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:02 am

Eclipse wrote:
Sadii wrote:hmmm...thinking about it now and realizing to myself, did the universe even have a beginning ? will it even have an end? it's weird, apparently we were all taught in many different ways that the universe has been here for the longest tiem that even man does not know, but have we ever thought about looking upon it and acutally finding out when it ever started? i beielve there must have been a start a long time ago, that a man can not himself find the answer to this, and it will have an end jsut like how it had started...God has created everythign he had created the Universe, so of course i believe there will be an end, but when? no one knows? some say 2012, but then again one can believe it as a myth. everythign was created by God, if he wants the universe to end it can end anytime but no one knows for sure when.

If you're saying a "god" created the universe, then what created that "god?"

God did created the universe, the heavens and the earth and everything tha we see today. Now for your question "who created God?" God wasn't created, He's the God who was, who is, and who is to come. In other words, He's the God from yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Eclipse Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:49 am

Boricua wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
Sadii wrote:hmmm...thinking about it now and realizing to myself, did the universe even have a beginning ? will it even have an end? it's weird, apparently we were all taught in many different ways that the universe has been here for the longest tiem that even man does not know, but have we ever thought about looking upon it and acutally finding out when it ever started? i beielve there must have been a start a long time ago, that a man can not himself find the answer to this, and it will have an end jsut like how it had started...God has created everythign he had created the Universe, so of course i believe there will be an end, but when? no one knows? some say 2012, but then again one can believe it as a myth. everythign was created by God, if he wants the universe to end it can end anytime but no one knows for sure when.

If you're saying a "god" created the universe, then what created that "god?"

God did created the universe, the heavens and the earth and everything tha we see today. Now for your question "who created God?" God wasn't created, He's the God who was, who is, and who is to come. In other words, He's the God from yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

So you claim that since everything came as a result of something else, eventually leading back to "god," but "god" is magically exempt from the rule. That's a little convenient, don't you think? For that matter, you seem to labor under the notion that everything that is was created by a "god," care to explain away evolution?

Boricua Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:29 pm

Eclipse wrote:
Boricua wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
Sadii wrote:hmmm...thinking about it now and realizing to myself, did the universe even have a beginning ? will it even have an end? it's weird, apparently we were all taught in many different ways that the universe has been here for the longest tiem that even man does not know, but have we ever thought about looking upon it and acutally finding out when it ever started? i beielve there must have been a start a long time ago, that a man can not himself find the answer to this, and it will have an end jsut like how it had started...God has created everythign he had created the Universe, so of course i believe there will be an end, but when? no one knows? some say 2012, but then again one can believe it as a myth. everythign was created by God, if he wants the universe to end it can end anytime but no one knows for sure when.

If you're saying a "god" created the universe, then what created that "god?"

God did created the universe, the heavens and the earth and everything tha we see today. Now for your question "who created God?" God wasn't created, He's the God who was, who is, and who is to come. In other words, He's the God from yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

So you claim that since everything came as a result of something else, eventually leading back to "god," but "god" is magically exempt from the rule. That's a little convenient, don't you think? For that matter, you seem to labor under the notion that everything that is was created by a "god," care to explain away evolution?

What about evolution? Are you saying that we evolved from monkeys or anything of that matter? With all due respect, you might believe that you came from an ape, but I sure do not. I was created by God in His image. So care to explain what it is that you mean by evolution?

Rombat Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:40 pm

There are signs of other things evolving even if you want to SWEAR BY THE HOLY BIBLE that there is no way we could have evolved from some form of primate. So please explain why those other beings had to evolve.

EDIT: My roommate has brought up a very good point if you combine it with your other post about how "God is a Perfect God and everything he created is Perfect". We are not perfect. But if he created us, we must be, according to what you said. He's slightly more religious than I am, and he remembers that according to the bible the only perfect human is Jesus. So even according to the text you're so vehemently standing behind you're wrong. Please reconcile these two points and rephrase your statements so that they do not contradict your point, so that your point has some weight.

Phoenix Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:41 pm

Boricua wrote:What about evolution? Are you saying that we evolved from monkeys or anything of that matter? With all due respect, you might believe that you came from an ape, but I sure do not. I was created by God in His image. So care to explain what it is that you mean by evolution?

Again, risking the value of intellectual safety, this is the most uneducated, ignorant thing I have read on these forums to date.

You have consistently ignored any argument against your religious texts and its accuracy, but continue to be uneducated and uninformed about the theory of evolution that's really just one experiment away from being a law, and you have the the sheer [deleted] to say something like:

Are you saying that we evolved from monkeys or anything of that matter?

It just makes this harder and harder to continue ANY discussion when you continue time and time again to participate WILLINGLY in blissful ignorance and you refuse to open your mind to any rational thought.

Nowhere does it say that we came from monkeys. You read that from some religious propaganda website or published article. The beings that humans evolved from aren't related to the species of monkeys you'll find at the zoo.

Eclipse Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:13 pm

Boricua wrote:What about evolution? Are you saying that we evolved from monkeys or anything of that matter? With all due respect, you might believe that you came from an ape, but I sure do not. I was created by God in His image. So care to explain what it is that you mean by evolution?

My, aren't we a little arrogant in the face of science. I must say I thought the idea of evolution was well-known, but for those of us who still haven't cracked open a science book in the last 50 years, I recommend this:

Evolution

I dare say I need to add little else, as Phoenix and Rombat so succinctly responded to you.

Boricua Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:26 pm

Rombat wrote:There are signs of other things evolving even if you want to SWEAR BY THE HOLY BIBLE that there is no way we could have evolved from some form of primate. So please explain why those other beings had to evolve.

EDIT: My roommate has brought up a very good point if you combine it with your other post about how "God is a Perfect God and everything he created is Perfect". We are not perfect. But if he created us, we must be, according to what you said. He's slightly more religious than I am, and he remembers that according to the bible the only perfect human is Jesus. So even according to the text you're so vehemently standing behind you're wrong. Please reconcile these two points and rephrase your statements so that they do not contradict your point, so that your point has some weight.

God being perfect, whatever He creates is perfect. Now, we as humans are perfect in our make up, but not in the way we are. When the Bible mentions Jesus as being the only perfect human being, which He was and He is also God's manifestation in flesh, it was about how He was without sin and how He is an example of how we should be. Jesus was tempted in everything by Satan but He remained Pure and Perfect and without Sin.

Eclipse Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:28 pm

Boricua wrote:
Rombat wrote:There are signs of other things evolving even if you want to SWEAR BY THE HOLY BIBLE that there is no way we could have evolved from some form of primate. So please explain why those other beings had to evolve.

EDIT: My roommate has brought up a very good point if you combine it with your other post about how "God is a Perfect God and everything he created is Perfect". We are not perfect. But if he created us, we must be, according to what you said. He's slightly more religious than I am, and he remembers that according to the bible the only perfect human is Jesus. So even according to the text you're so vehemently standing behind you're wrong. Please reconcile these two points and rephrase your statements so that they do not contradict your point, so that your point has some weight.

God being perfect, whatever He creates is perfect. Now, we as humans are perfect in our make up, but not in the way we are. When the Bible mentions Jesus as being the only perfect human being, which He was and He is also God's manifestation in flesh, it was about how He was without sin and how He is an example of how we should be. Jesus was tempted in everything by Satan but He remained Pure and Perfect and without Sin.

"We're perfect?" At the risk of sounding mean, this is getting a little pathetic. Ever heard of genetic diseases and mutations? Nothing is perfect. Jesus was a human and his life has been greatly exaggerated by history. If there is no "god," why should there be a Satan? There isn't, but people like to feel that they aren't evil, that something else made them do it. That's why Freud correctly said religion is for the weak-minded.

Boricua Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:42 pm

Eclipse wrote:

"We're perfect?" At the risk of sounding mean, this is getting a little pathetic. Ever heard of genetic diseases and mutations? Nothing is perfect. Jesus was a human and his life has been greatly exaggerated by history. If there is no "god," why should there be a Satan? There isn't, but people like to feel that they aren't evil, that something else made them do it. That's why Freud correctly said religion is for the weak-minded.

Do you think that does deseases and mutions occur by just pure coincided or by nature itself? Look it up, mutations are not caused because of our inperfect body, but rather because of outside influences; like radiation, UAV, and chemecals that we are in contact with.
Jesus' life is not an exaggerated story that we humans made up, it is look at like that by people that don't believe, and I was one of them at a time. And you're right, if there is no God, then there is no Satan, but there is a God and there is a Satan. There are people that are evil, not by nature, but because thats how they decide to live their lives. No one makes us do anything that we don't want to. God created us with free will.

Phoenix Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:15 pm

Boricua wrote:Do you think that does deseases and mutions occur by just pure coincided or by nature itself? Look it up, mutations are not caused because of our inperfect body, but rather because of outside influences; like radiation, UAV, and chemecals that we are in contact with.

As much as I applaud you for going onto Wikipedia and reading half of the first sentence, please go back and read the rest of the sentence.

For the sake of the rest of those that are reading this thread, Wikipedia's definition of a mutation is as follows:

Mutations can be caused by copying errors in the genetic material during cell division, or by exposure to mutagens (ultraviolet or ionizing radiation, mutagenic chemicals, or viruses), or can be induced by the organism itself, by cellular processes such as hypermutation.

Mutation can be caused by adaptation as well as outside sources, not ONLY outside sources.

Once again, cell mutations are proof of evolution, not God.

Eclipse Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:15 pm

Boricua wrote:
Eclipse wrote:

"We're perfect?" At the risk of sounding mean, this is getting a little pathetic. Ever heard of genetic diseases and mutations? Nothing is perfect. Jesus was a human and his life has been greatly exaggerated by history. If there is no "god," why should there be a Satan? There isn't, but people like to feel that they aren't evil, that something else made them do it. That's why Freud correctly said religion is for the weak-minded.

Do you think that does deseases and mutions occur by just pure coincided or by nature itself? Look it up, mutations are not caused because of our inperfect body, but rather because of outside influences; like radiation, UAV, and chemecals that we are in contact with.
Jesus' life is not an exaggerated story that we humans made up, it is look at like that by people that don't believe, and I was one of them at a time. And you're right, if there is no God, then there is no Satan, but there is a God and there is a Satan. There are people that are evil, not by nature, but because thats how they decide to live their lives. No one makes us do anything that we don't want to. God created us with free will.

Somehow, I doubt you really did not believe in "god," you talk too much like a fanatic. But for arguement's sake, what made you think there was a "god," and why a Christian "god." Please, not cookie-cutter bible belt excuse.

As far as mutation, Phoenix pretty much explained what they really are.

Boricua Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:35 am

Eclipse wrote:
Somehow, I doubt you really did not believe in "god," you talk too much like a fanatic. But for arguement's sake, what made you think there was a "god," and why a Christian "god." Please, not cookie-cutter bible belt excuse.

As far as mutation, Phoenix pretty much explained what they really are.

If you believe it or not, I once didn't believe in God. I spent most of my teenage years up until I turned 18 as what its called an Atheist. Is not that I'm a fanatic, but I'm a strong believer. The reason why I became a Christian, was because God showed Himself to be one day. And it wasn't something that I, or anyone could have made. It happened one random day that I felt His presence and I had an encounter with Him. It's something that I wouldn't expect you to understand or believe, unless you your self experienced it on your own.

Rombat Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:47 am

Boricua wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
Somehow, I doubt you really did not believe in "god," you talk too much like a fanatic. But for arguement's sake, what made you think there was a "god," and why a Christian "god." Please, not cookie-cutter bible belt excuse.

As far as mutation, Phoenix pretty much explained what they really are.

If you believe it or not, I once didn't believe in God. I spent most of my teenage years up until I turned 18 as what its called an Atheist. Is not that I'm a fanatic, but I'm a strong believer. The reason why I became a Christian, was because God showed Himself to be one day. And it wasn't something that I, or anyone could have made. It happened one random day that I felt His presence and I had an encounter with Him. It's something that I wouldn't expect you to understand or believe, unless you your self experienced it on your own.

Can you share this story of how he showed himself to you? This is so we can understand where you're coming from because currently it seems you're just spewing rhetoric without any backing and without having an open mind to what we might be saying.

Eclipse Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:01 pm

Rombat wrote:
Boricua wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
Somehow, I doubt you really did not believe in "god," you talk too much like a fanatic. But for arguement's sake, what made you think there was a "god," and why a Christian "god." Please, not cookie-cutter bible belt excuse.

As far as mutation, Phoenix pretty much explained what they really are.

If you believe it or not, I once didn't believe in God. I spent most of my teenage years up until I turned 18 as what its called an Atheist. Is not that I'm a fanatic, but I'm a strong believer. The reason why I became a Christian, was because God showed Himself to be one day. And it wasn't something that I, or anyone could have made. It happened one random day that I felt His presence and I had an encounter with Him. It's something that I wouldn't expect you to understand or believe, unless you your self experienced it on your own.

Can you share this story of how he showed himself to you? This is so we can understand where you're coming from because currently it seems you're just spewing rhetoric without any backing and without having an open mind to what we might be saying.

I couldn't have said it myself, Rombat.

Gamov Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:31 am

Sometimes when I see conversations like this, it makes my resolve waver a bit. Why do people argue so passionately over answers to a question? I think it is because answers are useful. We can use them to our advantage. A person who believes in a materialist view of ontology and that everything follows physical laws can use those laws to predict future events and explain past ones. A person who believes in a type of religious dualism (heaven and earth for example) uses dogma to provide moral values on how to interact with other people and live a "good" life. The former resent the latter because they think we are wasting their time on religious dualist thinking when there is one unambiguous explanation for everything, and that if we haven't found that explanation, we should not rely on anything else. The latter resent the former because they think it is shallow to not believe. They think that that stirring and comfortable feeling of "knowing" without knowing is essential to human happiness.

So there is conflict. IMO there is no understanding, no cooperation, and no intellectual safety from either parties in this thread. In order to truly philosophize we must first let go of our vice like grip on our favored viewpoints and be willing to see what the other table has to offer.

Eclipse Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:40 pm

Gamov wrote:So there is conflict. IMO there is no understanding, no cooperation, and no intellectual safety from either parties in this thread. In order to truly philosophize we must first let go of our vice like grip on our favored viewpoints and be willing to see what the other table has to offer.

Well to an extent, intellectual safety doesn't truly exist. Only levels of our civility. Our viewpoints are part of us, and help make us who we are, so it's really impossible to be completely neutral. Admittedly, we'll probably never agree, but we can still argue about it.

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